Organ donation

Discussion over more serious issues and topics
Dan
Posts: 4105
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:00 pm

Organ donation

Postby Dan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:56 pm

So the Welsh assembly have passed legislation stating that Wales will move to a presumed consent / opt-out system from December 2015.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24032031

This is good news. The shortage of organs we currently have leads to many unnecessary deaths, and much suffering.

I don't think these changes are enough though. They'll only apply to Wales -- this needs to be countrywide. Hopefully it will spur England and Scotland into action. I also personally think that in addition to presumed consent / opt-out, opting out ought to mean that you will be ineligible to receive an organ from the national register.

Thoughts?

User avatar
Sam
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:41 pm
Tag: Hasn't realised that there are custom ranks yet
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Organ donation

Postby Sam » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:59 pm

I'm a donor, but I don't think it should be automatic.

That just means the government effectively own your body.
:-)

User avatar
Ekona
Posts: 16625
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:24 pm
Tag: Official member of the RB Anti Facist Party est. 2009
Location: Braintree, innit

Re: Organ donation

Postby Ekona » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:28 pm

Bit controversial, that last bit Dan. Surely it goes against the whole ethos of the NHS?

Personally I quite like the idea, but only with a presumed consent law else it would be really harsh on some uneducated folk. I'm a donor now, never used to be though as I didn't feel comfortable with my body being hacked up after death. I'm cool with that now though, knowing I'll live twice as long is somewhat appealing.
"Chav kids are like sand people. They're easily startled but they'll be back, and in greater numbers."

User avatar
Polito45
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:17 pm
Tag: Hasn't realised that there are custom wanks yet
Location: Looking up a camel's hole.

Re: Organ donation

Postby Polito45 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:30 pm

Same here, I've carried a doner card for decades, also my son has cystic fibrosis so I have a vested interest.
But I can only imagine that harvesting organs automatically would be a legal and ethical minefield.

If your child died for example and the medical staff told you that they were taking/had taken his/her lungs for example,
you would probably say - not without my permission you're not... and you would be right.

I think it has to be an opt-in process. it's just a shame that so few people take the trouble to set it up for themselves.
Maybe a massive media campaign sponsored by the government 2-3 times a year say, would get more people to opt-in.
The seat-belt/driving awareness/drink driving ad campaigns are run here once a month and they seem to work so... ?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." — Aristotle

User avatar
RB
Posts: 10689
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:27 pm

Re: Organ donation

Postby RB » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:33 pm

I'm not a donor nor am I in favour of donation. I am not in favour of assumed consent and would opt out even though I shouldn't have to.
A slight majority of a statistically worthless sample size agree.

User avatar
Polito45
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:17 pm
Tag: Hasn't realised that there are custom wanks yet
Location: Looking up a camel's hole.

Re: Organ donation

Postby Polito45 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:39 pm

How could you not be in favour of donation? :?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." — Aristotle

User avatar
Sam
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:41 pm
Tag: Hasn't realised that there are custom ranks yet
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Organ donation

Postby Sam » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:43 pm

He's a Jehovah, innit.
:-)

Mr.Clark
Posts: 4435
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:57 am

Re: Organ donation

Postby Mr.Clark » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:59 pm

Dan wrote:So the Welsh assembly have passed legislation stating that Wales will move to a presumed consent / opt-out system from December 2015.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24032031

This is good news. The shortage of organs we currently have leads to many unnecessary deaths, and much suffering.

I don't think these changes are enough though. They'll only apply to Wales -- this needs to be countrywide. Hopefully it will spur England and Scotland into action. I also personally think that in addition to presumed consent / opt-out, opting out ought to mean that you will be ineligible to receive an organ from the national register.

Thoughts?

Yet again, Wales gets an awesome law in place before everyone else (the smoking ban and paying for plastic bags at supermarkets are two that come to mind quickly, and the latter hasn't made it over here yet).

Apart from your last part. As Ekona says, that's pretty anti-NHS. And that's a short, slippery slope to saying no smoking-related treatment because you chose to do it to yourself, or no fatty-related treatment because you sat on your arse instead of jogging, even though you knew it was bad for you. I think that in 15 years, the stigma of carrying a card saying "I'm selfish and don't want to help anyone after I die" should be enough to consign it to the minority.

I'd like to hear RB's reasoning because I can't think of a good reason to opt-out, but he tends to be pretty rational with his arguments.

User avatar
RB
Posts: 10689
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:27 pm

Re: Organ donation

Postby RB » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:03 pm

Nope.

There's just some reason why it doesn't sit well with me. Perhaps it's irrational but there it is.
I have no problem with defibrillators, chemotherapy, stem cell research or even lab grown organs but organ donation from dead or even living people just feels wrong to me.

It's not even related to my natural selection based belief that coast guards shouldn't rescue people on lilos.

Maybe I'm a monster and maybe my view would change if I were to experience the need for a spare liver first hand but as it stands, I'm against it.
A slight majority of a statistically worthless sample size agree.

Gi Me Beer
Posts: 2315
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:45 am
Tag: French cars, my favourite

Re: Organ donation

Postby Gi Me Beer » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:25 pm

I definitely think it should be opt out for organ donation. In other words consent is assumed, unless you are carrying your opt out card.

Should those opting out be refused NHS funded transplants, probably, can't see any reason why not.

User avatar
Polito45
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:17 pm
Tag: Hasn't realised that there are custom wanks yet
Location: Looking up a camel's hole.

Re: Organ donation

Postby Polito45 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:49 pm

Well, first of all...
RB wrote:It's not even related to my natural selection based belief that coast guards shouldn't rescue people on lilos.

^^
:lol:

But then...

RB wrote:Maybe I'm a monster and maybe my view would change if I were to experience the need for a spare liver first hand but as it stands, I'm against it.


No, you're not a monster, but I'm absolutely certain (unless you have some fucked up religious reasons) that you simply haven't thought through the likely
scenarios in which you would ultimately decide if you were for or against organ donation.

If someone you loved was laying in a hospital bed with not much time to live because their liver or whatever was failing,
and the body of a young guy was laying in a room down stairs who had just died in a road traffic accident but who had a perfectly good liver or whatever.
And he either carried a doner card or his family consented to have his organs harvested.

What would you do? Are you saying you'd say - ah no, it's ok. I don't really believe in that kind of thing??? :shock: :?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." — Aristotle

User avatar
kingweed
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:14 pm
Tag: Tags eh ?
Location: Just over there.
Contact:

Re: Organ donation

Postby kingweed » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:54 pm

Polito45 wrote:Well, first of all...
RB wrote:It's not even related to my natural selection based belief that coast guards shouldn't rescue people on lilos.

^^
:lol:

But then...

RB wrote:Maybe I'm a monster and maybe my view would change if I were to experience the need for a spare liver first hand but as it stands, I'm against it.


No, you're not a monster, but I'm absolutely certain (unless you have some fucked up religious reasons) that you simply haven't thought through the likely
scenarios in which you would ultimately decide if you were for or against organ donation.

If someone you loved was laying in a hospital bed with not much time to live because their liver or whatever was failing,
and the body of a young guy was laying in a room down stairs who had just died in a road traffic accident but who had a perfectly good liver or whatever.
And he either carried a doner card or his family consented to have his organs harvested.

What would you do? Are you saying you'd say - ah no, it's ok. I don't really believe in that kind of thing??? :shock: :?


This exact thing happened in Grey's Anatomy and the family refused the liver/kidney can't remember and the kid died.

Seriously, it actually annoyed me. It's one of those though, if people believe/feel that way, then who am I/we to judge them.

User avatar
Polito45
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:17 pm
Tag: Hasn't realised that there are custom wanks yet
Location: Looking up a camel's hole.

Re: Organ donation

Postby Polito45 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:03 pm

Yeah, there are arguments you can make, like the fuckwits - people with religious convictions which don't allow for organ transplantation
or if it's ethical to give a new liver to a man who's spent 30 years destroying his old one but I imagine those are the exceptions in organ transplantation.
The norm would be for someone who's quality of life is impaired because of some genetic disorder and for whom a transplant would mean a whole new lease of life.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." — Aristotle

Dan
Posts: 4105
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:00 pm

Re: Organ donation

Postby Dan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:12 pm

Ekona wrote:Bit controversial, that last bit Dan. Surely it goes against the whole ethos of the NHS?
I don't think so. Everyone would be allowed access to the organ pool so long as they met the medical criteria (which already exist and are in place), and had not made the decision to opt out of it. We already bar people from having organs on various grounds -- be that medical, or when they make poor decisions about their healthcare (e.g. people with alcoholic liver disease who continue to drink) -- in order to protect the extremely precious and limited number of donated organs. If people (~1000/year) are going to continue to die for want of an organ -- which they will for the foreseeable future -- then I'd rather it be someone who has made the selfish decision that they wouldn't want to help someone in their own situation than someone who has demonstrated that they would.

Personally I quite like the idea, but only with a presumed consent law else it would be really harsh on some uneducated folk. I'm a donor now, never used to be though as I didn't feel comfortable with my body being hacked up after death. I'm cool with that now though, knowing I'll live twice as long is somewhat appealing.
Yeah, obviously this would have to be introduced alongside an 'opt out' system.

User avatar
Polito45
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:17 pm
Tag: Hasn't realised that there are custom wanks yet
Location: Looking up a camel's hole.

Re: Organ donation

Postby Polito45 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:40 pm

Well I'm all for it, but I'm biased.

It's a difficult topic because it involves one person who's very sick and another who's dead.
I would just hope that it wouldn't be presented to the family of the dead person as a fait accompli.
To lose someone close to you is traumatic enough without being told that, by the way - we removed some part of them out without your consent.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." — Aristotle


Return to “Serious Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron