Independence

Discussion over more serious issues and topics
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Dan
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Independence

Postby Dan » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:34 am

Not long now.

As a non-Scot I'm not really all that bothered by the outcome, but if the 'Yes' vote wins, I'm predicting disaster in the long term (if not the short term).

The plans that seem to have been made for how an independent Scotland would actually function are completely half-arsed (currency? We'll sort that one out later) at best, and pure fantasy (less tax, more spending! No problem!) at worst. Based on interviews I've heard from the 'Yes' campaign so far, the overwhelming argument in their favour is 'FREEEEEEDOOOOMMM'. I really struggle to see how this has gone as far as it has. But like I say, I'm not really all that bothered. The rUK will probably be better off without having to maintain the NHS for some of the unhealthiest areas of the country, develop infrastructure for very remote and sparsely populated areas, and with less of Alex Salmond's gurning face on our TVs.

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Ekona
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Re: Independence

Postby Ekona » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:15 am

I can understand the need for independence. I can understand how you might feel you want the freedom to create your own future.

What I don't understand is how anyone could vote Yes until they had firm answers on the following:
1. What currency they'll be using, since they've been told it won't be the pound;
2. How they plan to join the EU, since even the rule the Yes camp is working on has a veto option which you know rUK would use;
3. What do they plan to do when the oil is gone?

If rUK only want Scotland for the oil money, as has been said, then it must be worth a huuuuge amount. If so, then you must be basing a lot of sums on that. Even if there's another 100 years of plentiful supply, what happens after those 100 years? If they want to carry on using the GBP it will have to be unofficially, which means that they will have no say in the value of it which could be a huge hindrance for an indy Scotland. EU membership would be critical for furthering trade, and whilst I'm no expert even the top people who are have said they have no fucking idea if they'll be allowed to join straight away.

Could an independent Scotland prosper? Absolutely, it's a lovely country with a proud people. However, it's such a huge risk and you could have 20 years of bureaucratic anarchy with massive taxes before you even get close to normal. For me, if I were in their shoes, I wouldn't want to risk what I had for that.





Also, lols at people who say they're tired of being ruled by Westminster who have no idea what Scotland needs as they're too far away. Edinburgh to Thurso is less than the distance from London to York, and the north of England have the same complaint: What makes them think that they'll suddenly be able to please everyone living a greater distance away?
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Re: Independence

Postby siteguru » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:31 am

As a non-Scot who DOES live in Scotland, I'll be voting tomorrow. 8)

I'll be voting NO. I think my wife will be voting NO. I don't know how my daughters will be voting; I suspect the elder one will vote NO, but the younger one (16) may well vote YES as the YES campaign have been really targeting the youth vote (Wee Eck was quite canny when he argued for 16 year-olds to get a referendum vote), plus her best friend (and her Mum) are pro-independence.

What I do know is that the result will be very close. Polls last night showed 52% NO and 48% YES ... I believe that will actually be the final result, and I have been predicting that for a few months now.

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Re: Independence

Postby Ekona » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:06 am

Whatever happens, I genuinely hope that Scotland goes on to be successful, either with our without the rest of us. :)

Although, given the ramblings of AS, I'm nearly getting to the point where I hope it's a Yes and everything falls apart in the next few years :twisted:
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MEGAHYDER
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Re: Independence

Postby MEGAHYDER » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:29 am

I think it's definitely wrong that most YES voters are Bravehearts. While of course there are some, actually I feel that most voters up here (YES and NO) have been making their decisions on political, economic [i]and]/i] emotional principles.

The reason I am voting NO is much the reason many people are voting YES. We all want things to change for the better, however I believe this change can be achieved within the UK - albeit with a significantly changed political framework. Most YES voters see the current framework as untenable and the only way to change it is to ditch it all together.

On an emotional level - I find it sad that so many Scots feel so detached from the rest of the UK. It's obviously a failing of the entire country (The UK I mean) that some of it's citizens don't feel a part of it. When I meet English people I don't feel different from them, same as I don't feel different from Europeans (we'll leave that debate for later) or in fact most people in the world.

Separatist movements like the Catalan and Scotland are saying 'WE ARE DIFFERENT - WE ARE DIFFERENT - ONLY US CAN LEAD US' which I feel is backwards and verging on ignorance really. The future of humanity is more co-operation and more understanding. Telling the people of England that we are so different we don't even trust you to help care for our health (run the NHS for e.g) sends the wrong message.

My great hope is that after a NO vote, there is massive political reform in the whole UK leading to federelisation for all in the UK.

Of course if everyone had voted LID DEM like they said they would at the last general election (fucking chickening out at the last minute cunts) we would have a had the voting reform and social justice everyone keeps harping on about now.

LIB DEM

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RB
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Re: Independence

Postby RB » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:15 pm

I think it's a backwards step for the human race. We need to be a united planet not a collection of little bits of arbitrary land.
A slight majority of a statistically worthless sample size agree.

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Re: Independence

Postby Polito45 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:33 pm

I agree, but you have to take the history of the United Kingdom into account.
There is a sense that it was imposed on the people of Scotland and Ireland.

There's no doubt that there is a close bond between the peoples of England, Ireland, Scotland & Wales... even Liverpool. :)
But at the same time there has to be recognition that we are different peoples with various cultural inputs.
The Irish, Scots & Welsh hark back to their Celtic roots (mostly), The English to their French.

There's a lot to be said for self determination, and doesn't that have to be the basis of an honest relationship before you can think of common ground?

I find it interesting that Scotland is considering seceding from the union at this late stage, but it just shows you that there is a sense of unfinished business after all this time. It's not the end of the world. England would not stand by and watch Scotland go down the toilet if things do go arseways.
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MEGAHYDER
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Re: Independence

Postby MEGAHYDER » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:25 pm

No. We are not different people. We are all humans.

RB is right

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Ekona
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Re: Independence

Postby Ekona » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:29 pm

I strongly suspect if Alex Salmond and his need for power and to be able to tick the 'Huge Political Change' cheevo box didn't exist, we wouldn't be having a referendum now.
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Polito45
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Re: Independence

Postby Polito45 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:59 pm

MEGAHYDER wrote:No. We are not different people. We are all humans.

RB is right



No, I agree. I used to travel a lot around Europe and the one thing that struck me was... sheep.
Sheep are just sheep, wherever you go. They don't give a shit about borders. Of course they're also stupid bastards, but that's beside the point.
It made me wonder about how humans draw such fine distinctions between each other nationality wise.

The future for the human race lies in greater homogeny between us ... if we have a future at all.
But you can't ignore the past. Old scores need to be settled. You should have a war between Scotland and England...
to clear the air like, and then start off on an equal footing. ;)
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." — Aristotle

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Sam
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Re: Independence

Postby Sam » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:37 pm

Is it wrong that I want them to become independent just to see it fail?


"Hurr durr fuck UK I want independence but plz let us keep ur pound m8"

Also, if it is successful I would expect all the ones over here to be humming and hah-ing not long after. Not that it would happen here...
:-)

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Dan
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Re: Independence

Postby Dan » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:19 am

Sam wrote:Also, if it is successful I would expect all the ones over here to be humming and hah-ing not long after. Not that it would happen here...


You already had a go (albeit not for complete independence): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_I ... ndum,_1973

The results were pretty emphatiac.

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Re: Independence

Postby siteguru » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:39 am

When the Scots last had a proper go (1979) there was actually a narrow margin in favour. However it was a requirement that the turnout was at least 40% - it wasn't, only 32.9% turnout was achieved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_i ... um.2C_1979

When I was paying for my fuel this morning, the guy in the garage was saying he'd heard that BetFair had already paid out on a NO vote. A quick online search suggests this is true.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... -vote.html

Mr.Clark
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Re: Independence

Postby Mr.Clark » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:10 pm

The funny thing about this referendum specifically, and democracy in general, is that people are, for the most part, woefully underinformed.

If I was asked to vote on pulling out of the EU, I'd vote no. Not because I think it's necessarily the best option (I'd go as far as "um... probably?"), but because I have no idea of the ramifications of change that big. Not a clue. How would that affect the economy? Laws? Trade? Travel? Prices of stuff? The rest of the world? F*cked if I know.

Same with Scotland. How many of the "yes" people are really just trying to say "fuck those English bastards" with no thought for how everything works afterwards? How many of them know exactly how things work now?

Although that said, I agree with RB et al, with the
I think it's a backwards step for the human race. We need to be a united planet not a collection of little bits of arbitrary land.
comments.

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Re: Independence

Postby Helios » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:29 pm

I'd prefer to have a global government before we almost self destruct with the Eugenics Wars and WW3.

I'd gladly vote to turn the EU into a United States of Europe. :)
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