EU - In or Out?

Discussion over more serious issues and topics

Should the UK exit the EU?

Yes
5
22%
No
18
78%
Don't care - won't vote
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 23

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Ekona
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Ekona » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Got to start a baseline from somewhere. People are free to stay in their respective countries while paperwork gets processed, obviously, but it still needs to be done.
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Mr.Clark
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Mr.Clark » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:16 pm

Ekona wrote:People are free to stay in their respective countries while paperwork gets processed, obviously
Romanians in Britain stay in Britain? Or stay in Romania?

You say "obviously", but I'd imagine you'd be a little more worried about your future if you were working in Spain or Germany right now, just as all the EU nationals over here currently are.

Also, been reading some interesting thoughts about whether Northern Ireland are likely to try for their own independence referendum if Scotland get theirs.

I wouldn't put any money on how that goes, but I'd bet Ireland would be very interested in welcoming them back into the fold... and it might be tempting for the 55% of NI that voted Remain, especially if that would mean keeping their EU membership ("lol, Scotland", etc)

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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Ekona » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:35 pm

They stay wherever they are now, so Brits in Marbella or Polish in Harlow. Like I said on my previous post ;)

I'm sure they are worried, but that's life. Stuff changes all the time, we just have to deal with it. It's highly unlikely anyone will be kicked out of anywhere as it either makes the Tories look evil (driving voters away) or it makes the EU look evil (meaning other countries might want to leave). It'll just mean a whole bunch of paperwork and visas, costing a small fortune.

That said, if I were in an unskilled industry, I think I'd be looking at where I may need to move to next as a back up plan. Just in case, mind.
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Mr.Clark » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:23 pm

Ekona wrote:They stay wherever they are now, so Brits in Marbella or Polish in Harlow. Like I said on my previous post ;)
Ah. I didn't know if "respective countries" meant "country of residence" or "country of origin". Cheers.

And lets be realistic here. The Tories would kick out their own grandmothers if it got them some votes. Some of the things they do are so evil that they actually look cartoonish.

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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Ekona » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:36 pm

No more so than any other party. Labour want to tax fuck out of anyone trying to make a life for themselves, Greens hate anyone who dares own a car, and the LDs... Well, let's be honest and just say that no-one really knows what they want :lol:

Interestingly someone asked the other day what policies Corbyn has, and to my shame I didn't know so I went off to find out. Did you know there isn't a single page of policies anywhere on the Labour website? Not a single thing, go take a look. Plenty of places asking you to signup, but not telling you what you're specifically signing up for. The Tory one may well be out of date with CMD on the front, but at least it's there.
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Mr.Clark » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:09 am

Looking at the Conservatives as "well Labour don't even have a plan" just proves what a shit-show this country's political system is in right now.

Labour are the opposition, for fuck's sake, and every time May has asked for something with regards to brexit, they rubber stamped it. That's not opposing.

Urgh. Rant over.

But seriously. Fuck Corbyn.

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RB
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby RB » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:15 am

I still love this video of Corbyn hiding from the press behind a glass door looking like a frightened dog.
A slight majority of a statistically worthless sample size agree.

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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Ekona » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:21 am

The opposition doesn't always have to oppose everything. I actually agree with Corbyn's stance on backing the A50 legislation.


But OMFG hiding behind the glass door :lol:
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Mr.Clark » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:39 pm

Ekona wrote:The opposition doesn't always have to oppose everything. I actually agree with Corbyn's stance on backing the A50 legislation.
Surely unless it's something that's vastly in both the public interest and the public opinion, they could at least be providing some other options rather than just blindly agreeing with the government. Otherwise we just effectively have a supermajority government, and that's not actually very democratic on an issue as polarising as Brexit.

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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Ekona » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:35 pm

They're only voting to start A50 though, nothing else. I agree there should be a big debate and a vote after the deal is known, but without even starting A50 then there's really nothing to actually disagree with.

Unless you're like the LDs and think we should re-run the referendum, of course.
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Mr.Clark » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:32 pm

Personally I'd love to, but I can't see how that's particularly democratic. You can't just re-do a referendum because you don't like the result - we've all mocked Farage for saying exactly that when he thought that Leave was going to lose.

The trouble is, after we trigger A50, we're out. It may be in two years, it may be less, but I don't see how we have any particular negotiating power at that point. If the EU wants unreasonable things and May tells them to go fuck themselves, we just drop out with a ton of legislation that stops working and nothing to replace it with, especially if that negotiation takes up the majority of the two years (which it could easily do).

I don't think attaching a few safeguards to the process before it happens is too much to ask for, really.

And we're currently getting quotes from the Brexit Minister saying that they haven't actually looked at the economic impact of a "hard" Brexit. You can't have May saying "no deal is better than a bad deal" when they literally don't know what no deal looks like...

I'm resigned to the fact that it's happening, I'm now starting to get scared that having seen the iceberg in the distance, we're still trying to decide whether we should steer left or right to avoid it while going at full speed straight ahead in the meantime...

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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Ekona » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:30 pm

EU relies on trade from the UK as well, especially cars and finance. They can't afford to screw us over, and if they do then it'll just galvanise other countries into leaving: maybe not now, but in a few years when other elections start taking place and promising silly referendums. ;)

We do know what No Deal looks like, it's WTO rules. That would be pretty crap, but it might still be better than having rubbish access to the single market and having to pay into the EU without the benefits. We don't know.

There's really nothing to panic about, everything will work itself out nicely for everyone. The political fallout is too great on both sides for them not to agree, although there's no doubt that the final agreement won't be done in two years, more like ten. What'll happen is that we'll get to the end of two years and they'll just sign a simple document giving the UK full access to the EU as long as we keep the open borders thing like we have now, until the proper deal is done. Panic not my friend, everything will be all gravy. :)
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Mr.Clark » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:40 pm

I really wish I had your optimism...

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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Ekona » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:41 pm

Normally I'm as pessimistic and cynical as they come, but since I lost I'm determined to make the very best out of what we've got now, and moving forward. I feel, for the most part, the right team is in place and also that the timing is right to genuinely make a real good go of leaving the EU behind. Let's blaze a trail that other countries will want to follow, then perhaps in the future we can start up another EU that's slightly more user-friendly. :)
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Joe
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Re: EU - In or Out?

Postby Joe » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:10 pm

Ekona wrote:Got to start a baseline from somewhere. People are free to stay in their respective countries while paperwork gets processed, obviously, but it still needs to be done.

No!

It doesn't need to be done! None of this shit needs to happen! People are acting like this what everyone wants and are blindly going along with it because "it needs to be done". What the fuck? NO. Nobody voted to leave the single market, nobody actually voted to ruin lives and break up families, nobody voted to buttfuck the economy or completely discard long-established trade agreements for shitty WTO rules and huge tariffs, nobody voted to leave Euratom (I mean JESUS, WHY??), nobody voted to put the good friday agreement and the goddamn Union at risk - Yet here we are, and everyone's acting like this is unquestionably the price we have to pay to respect the so-called "will of the people"

The same "will of the people" that is actually the astonishingly slim majority of YES responses to a catch-all proposition somehow supposed to cover everything from immigration reform to fishing quotas, wrapped up in a Fisher-Price package that grossly - obscenely - simplified an issue so opaque and with such complex factors involved that it would be impossible to expect every single member of the electorate to fully comprehend even WITH all the facts, figures, projections and consequences, let alone with this information either straight-up not existing or buried underneath the most divisive, shitty political campaigns of modern times leading their decisions.

Yeah, THAT will of the people. Except even THAT was advisory - Something supposed to inform our elected representatives and direct them to act in our best interests through hard-fought parliamentary sovereignty to advance and protect our nation. NOT A FUCKING MANDATE TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PULL THE EU PLUG.

And the worst part? We're only here because of a mind-bogglingly stupid gamble that pigfucking poe-faced 6-foot lizard David Cameron lost within his own party, leading to the general public being given an opportunity to shout loudly "fuck everyone, we're British!" which of course they only went and fucking did, fuelled by a relentless right-wing media campaign that completely ignored facts and rebranded trade and financial experts as fear-mongering traitors and went for visceral, emotional, nostalgic, pride-based arguments that focused entirely on a fucking fairytale ending without detailing the means - ie. SACRIFICING everything we fought to build, irreversibly, and to SUFFER for YEARS to come - of how the gibbering fuck we're supposed to get there.

Respect the result? Nah. Democracy says I have a right to point out a fucking disgraceful sham.
Get behind the Leavers? I'm not about to forget that the so-called dream team leading this cult are the same elitist wankers who have strangled our services, councils, NHS and welfare because "austerity" - yet somehow still have spare billions for Trident's replacement and plenty left over to keep the monarchy in swanky digs for the next hundred years.
No need for a second referendum? Lads, there shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place. You want to identify the will of the people, ask them WHY they said LEAVE. Separate the issues. Tackle them individually through reforms. Make an effort, collectively, as a nation, to step the fuck up and fix something massive that has potential to change for the better and become beneficial to everyone. Don't take the hand of the devil and run blindly into an abyss just because it's the opposite direction to your problems.

Honestly, what the hell have we become as a nation that we're chucking our principles out of the window to enact a decision built on an inverted pyramid of piss because someone says it "has to happen"? Jesus fucking wept


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