Mansplaining

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Ekona
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Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:10 am

I'm not sure I have a tot understanding of this as a thing, so would you guys say I fell into the trap of doing this earlier?

Using mobile, apologies for the crack handed way I've done this.

Search for 'The Love Escalator Prank'. Watch the video, doesn't matter which source. A young 20 something woman from Hawaii posted this comment:

To all those guys feeling grossed out about this. This is how us women feel about unwanted attention. So just please stop.


Next comment, another 20-something women, from the USA but doesn't specify:

For real tho


My reply then went like this:

Whilst I don't disagree with the sentiment of your reply, you shouldn't really speak for one half of the population in one sweeping comment. This prank appears to doing a wonderful job of showing just how insecure some men are just because something simple happened like a hand touch, albeit done on purpose. I don't know if the maker's purpose was to put over your POV or not, if so then they should've gone with catcalling or bum touching on the way up instead.

For me, I'm personally embarrassed by watching that, and seeing both just how aggressive some guys are, as well as the failure on behalf of their friend/partner to tell them that behaviour is not acceptable. Of course a certain amount or type of unwanted attention is unacceptable, but I don't think this video is either there yet or demonstrates that point. I believe it's highly likely that, roles reversed, most women would either have felt embarrassment, shame or possibly even humour in that situation: Highly unlikely anger. Me, I'd have been puzzled as hell all day if a guy did that to me, and in a world of trouble if a girl had when my wife was with me.

Unwanted attention is indeed a problem that needs stopping, but I don't think this is the right place to do it. On a general scientific level, I'd like to find out what is a higher grossed out level for women, non-sexual unwanted physical contact (like this) or non-sexual catcalling ("Wow, you've got a lovely smile!"). Genuine question, not trying to say they're the worst examples or anything.

Up to a point, all attention is unwanted unless specifically asked for. If a guy puts on a smart suit, hits the club with his pal hoping to meet someone, at some point he's going to have to take a risk and make the approach. How is he to know if he attention is unwanted or not? If a woman put on a smart outfit, hits the club with a gal hoping to meet someone, because she looks like she's made an effort is that enough? Clearly not, and leads to victim blaming. Should every guy wait until the woman has given him written confirmation before offering to buy her a drink? Again, ridiculous, but where's the line?

In the real world we all have to take a gamble at some point, it's just as important to accept that as it is to accept either a rejection on the man's side as it is to expect attention from a guy on occasion (some more than others, as a man who was never a 'player' or confident with women in my younger pre-marriage days I'd have been more nervous asking someone out in a club than I would trying to start a conversation up in a place like a museum where I would hope we might have something in common). No-one is disputing that some men are incapable of taking rejection, but at the same time we should not vilify all men for making a sensible approach nor assume all women do not want it.

I'm sorry you've clearly had bad experiences in life with my half of the species, FWIW I'd be quick to jump on 'mates' if they had that kind of attitude discussed. However, it's unfair to assume that no woman might appreciate an approach like this, as we are all different.



Now, I've read that out a hundred times both pre and post posting, and I think I make a fair and reasonable point. However, am I just mansplaining? I'm high as a kite on morphine right now (for those not on FB, this is my 5th day in hospital this week with gallstones) so has it made me a cunt?

Genuine answers only please, I'd like to think I'm still a reasonable human being despite my right wing political leanings. ;)
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Joe » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:59 pm

How to check if you're mansplaining:

Are you a man, talking to a woman?
There's a chance you're mansplaining

Have you offered a counterpoint to something she said?
Increased likelihood of mansplaining

Is it related to a subject she likely knows more about than you?
You're probably mansplaining now

Is it a subject for which she possesses a unique point of view your male privilege precludes you from ever hoping to understand?
Safe to assume mansplaining is happening

Have you suggested she shouldn't speak on behalf of other women who share her level of experience?
Oh dear you're definitely mansplaining

Did you use a straw-man argument to invalidate her point and support your own views? For example, reframing the concepts of consent and personal space from a public context to, say, a nightclub or party?
Yeah dude just stop now

Did you finish with something like "not all men.." or "you can't just assume.." or "in most cases it's wrong, but.." for any other reason than to make yourself feel better about justifying your own actions/beliefs, rather than simply taking it as an opportunity to listen to someone better placed to speak on the subject and empathise accordingly?
Game over. Full mansplain achieved.

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:47 pm

So yes?
"Chav kids are like sand people. They're easily startled but they'll be back, and in greater numbers."

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:51 pm

Because if so, then mansplaining is the biggest load of horseshit ever. I should not be classed as being wrong for essentially stating the obvious along with telling both sides of the argument they're knobs.

Even when I put myself down? Even when I say how I'd feel if what had happened in a video which had nothing to do with women had happened to me? Even when I say victim shaming is bad?


I'm done with this whole modern day feminism shit then. They can shove it up their lovrky, tight, pert bottoms.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:55 pm

However, I genuinely do appreciate the time it took you to post that, and I mean that fella. Like I said, if felt both natural but odd whilst typing it, so I figured it probably was. Maybe I'd have got away with it if I'd just said that it's not the end of the world if a stranger deliberately touches a strangers' hand on an escalator, then does Model Sexy Face at the top.

Wouldn't have been in any worse trouble.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Joe » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:29 pm

Ekona wrote:So yes?

A little, yes. Apologies if it came across a little harsh :mrgreen:

Yes, there is the slim chance that a woman may jump into the comments to post how she and her girlfriends would love to find their own Love Actually moment of romantic serendipity, where the touch of a stranger on an escalator sparked desperate, longing looks and racing hearts as the cruel, relentless flow of the mechanical steps pulled you away from each other forever.

But you're not that woman. Turning up to postulate that this fictional woman might exist is doing nothing except minimising the very real experiences of the very real women right there in the comments.

You can safely assume that the percentage of women who actively seek out random advances from men they don't know is microscopic compared to the percentage of women who - like most men - just want to get through their day without having to come out of their bubble to fend off interactions from strangers.

Try this:

Imagine half the people you pass on your commute are charity workers trying to get some money off you. That would suck, right? Imagine they believe they have a right to approach you and get a polite response. They might also select you based on how you look or whether you're making eye contact, or if you're walking with friends or busy doing something else. If you faced that every day you might dress defensively or carry around earbuds to wear (not plugged in, because you still want situational awareness) or you might arrange to walk with a friend or fake a long phone conversation, right? Because you just want to be left alone and those damn entitled charity workers just haven't gotten the message yet.

Now imagine that they've ignored all your efforts to pass unnoticed. They say you look like a generous kind of guy and they ask if you're interested in making a donation. You say no thanks, but instead of smiling and wishing you a great day they call you a fucking dick, shouting that you look like a selfish asshole with too much money anyway and that you need to fucking get over yourself. Imagine that they then might decide to follow you for a few blocks, catch up to you when there's less people around and ask for your donation again, more forcefully.

This is what women experience from men, all the time, everywhere.

"Oh but I'm one of the good guys!" you cry. Sure, ok. That's great for you. But this isn't about you. It's about how EVERY guy thinks he's one of the good guys and how that fact in itself gives women no choice but to force a smile for every unwanted compliment, to actively avoid interactions and to ignore deliberate hand-touches instead of reacting, just in case that one guy isn't one of the good ones.

And I think we can agree that's a shit situation for women to be in, which is why arguing AT ALL that it's more important that a guy should have a right to approach a woman than it is for women to just feel safe is not an argument you want to find yourself making.

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby RB » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:28 pm

What I've discovered is this:
If you explain something to a woman, you are explaining.
If you explain something to a woman with the thought in your mind that she's an idiot, you are mansplaining.
If you explain something to a woman who thinks you are an idiot, you are mansplaining.
If you explain sex between two men, you are manonmansplaining.
A slight majority of a statistically worthless sample size agree.

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby kingweed » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:23 pm

What a pile of shit

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Re: Mansplainin

Postby Ekona » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:37 pm

Joe wrote:
Ekona wrote:So yes?

A little, yes. Apologies if it came across a little harsh :mrgreen:

Nah not at all man, I'm cool. I'll try and reply to your post a bit at a time, but without that awful multi-quote tear down thing. And bearing in mind I'm in both a lot of pain, and on a lot of morphine. ;)

See, I don't disagree with any of what you're saying. I wasn't trying to get to that point about wanting a Love Actually moment (great term!), more that the woman who I replied to decided to spin the whole thing from a light/serious look at almost homophobic reactions, to pushing her own agenda. Looking back now, sadly I bit and instead of telling her to fuck off I tried to explain a POV. Reading back now, I did a piss poor job. The points are valid, but poor structuring. I accept that.

I would end to look at things from a different POV though on the trying to get through the day thing. I reckon that we'll over 50% of people, maybe even as high as 75% (clearly made up numbers) would be fucking delighted if a fit random person gave them some kind of ego boost once a day. If a hot brunette, checks me out twice, or we share a smile, or she says she likes my shirt in passing, I'm going to be pretty stoked all day. If ugly people start doing it, or anyone dares to get physical, then yeah I'm going to get angry very quick. That to me would seem to be a reasonable default action: hot person good, ugly person or touching bad.

Maybe I'm more of an attention whore than most, dunno. I certainly don't want touching at all, because otherwise Jo is gonna get mad, but we both check out hot people on the street still. Married, not blind. Charity worker is a good analogy but human nature is not to give money away: It is to breed and procreate and have fun. So I see anything to do with that different. In fairness I've no idea how Jo feels about being checked out, I know she's body conscious because of her size but I'll have a proper conversation with her tomorrow to find out. Certainly I don't like people staring when I weight over 14 st, but I love it when in in the 12s.

Like I say, any aggression or filthy comments genuinely disgust me. I work in a very male-orientated industry and I feel very awkward if I see someone make a comment to a person like "OI OI SEXY!" or "ELO DARLING!" etc. That's crude, rude, unacceptable. It's getting better in the industry, but I'd be lying if I said it was great. Have I ever done it? Not to my knowledge, but I condoned it when I was younger to try and fit in. Now my seniority enables me to come down very firm on that, and I have done although thankfully to none of our guys.

Am I a good guy? Yeah. I make no apologies for that, and I won't change for anyone either. If I happen to catch a stranger's eyes in the morning, be they male or female, staff or passengers, I'll always say a quick "Hello!" with a smile on my face. It's polite. Maybe I was checking them out, maybe I was trying to read the slogan on his t-shirt, maybe I was trying to figure out what sex they were: If I've been caught looking, and I'm a curious person, then I might as well say hello. Most times I get a hello back, as the other person was also looking, sometimes they look surprised that someone was being nice to them so walk past. Never does it get hostile or aggressive. Why would it?

I've always been crap even why trying to chat women up, just ask Jo about the nail polish comments :lol: But so what? When the hell am I supposed to be allowed to pay someone a compliment or start a conversation with the hope I may get a date out of it? Pretending I'm not married of course! I do have a friend who is trying to date right now, 25 years old. Socially inept. When the hell *is* he allowed to tell someone he finds them attractive and would like to get to know them better? What are the official rules where no-one will be offended? I'm leaving that as an open ended question, even a general one, as I've no idea. Help would be appreciated so I can pass it on.


Like I've said, unwanted physical touching shouldn't be allowed, and aggressive pursuing a no-no too. I've not clicked your link yet as my iPad is crashing too often to risk it: I'll post this, then watch, then comment. I think everyone SHOULD have the right to make a reasonable approach to a person to initialise human interaction, assuming they're not sitting there with a huge FUCK OFF WORLD sign round their neck. If someone, male or female, is looking bored and like they may want a conversation and I'm in the mood for one, I'll say hello or pass cheap comment about the weather. If I get no reply or a curt one, I'll stay silent. There was a lady in the hospital yesterday who was on her own, looked miserable as sin, so I smiled and said hi. We exchanged pleasantries, turns out she was waiting for her husband to fly back from Spain to be with her (I didn't ask what was wrong), had a little chat before I had to go lay back down as my pain was too bad. In your world I should never have approached her, or even looked in her way, and if I hadn't I'd have missed cheering someone up by simply having a 'dull' conversation, as well as realising my own situation wasn't that bad.


I think people as a whole are pushing to extremes: Those gobby ones (usually men but also see hen parties) who feel they have a right to push sexual advances on everyone; and those who think that everyone is a bad guy and all men are potential rapists and the human race is doomed simply because I dared to look at a person I found interesting. You know what? Fuck both those groups. They're both idiots, and they're both the reasons why the extreme left and extreme right are gaining momentum. People need to not be cunts, but they also need to accept that not everyone is a cunt. Pushing mensplaining as a thing is ridiculous, leads to the feminazi tag, and creates hostility where one need not exist.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:51 pm

So I read Joe's link, and sure, the bloke was a cunt. Doesn't mean all blokes are cunts, all it does is mean this one woman and the others that read her story are now likely to be that bit more aggressive in getting people to leave them alone.

"Hey ma" and "Hey how you doin'" are already sounding alarm bells to me, what kind of guy would even open to a girl like that at 0700?! Still, what was she supposed to do? The guy was a fucking lunatic,but begging a lunatic to punch you in the face is stupid. "Call 911 please" whilst walking back to the counter would've been a smarter move, but hey it's easy to criticise choices in the light of day.


I maintain that guys need to know that's not remotely acceptable behaviour, but I also want women to know that's not typical behaviour. I don't know anyone who acts like that, and wouldn't want to know them either.

Joe, does Helen get that kind of unwanted a lot? Does anyone else's partner? Or did they?
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Joe » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:47 am

We actually discussed this last night. Helen says it's generally not something her or her friends/colleagues experience and that in fact she wouldn't necessarily have an issue with a stranger passing comment on her appearance. She suggested that the problem might not nearly be as widespread as I've been led to believe and that - as you said originally - there's simply no way to know unless every woman comes forward to share her feelings on the subject.

In contrast, Amie (Helen's 20-yo sister) said that it's a thing she and her student friends experience all the time, and that it's absolutely right that women should be allowed to move through the world without being required to respond to every comment from every man on the street. Men don't have to deal with it, so why should women?

So yeah, take whatever I've said with a pinch of salt. Personally, I wouldn't tell a rape victim that they can't speak on behalf of other rape victims. I wouldn't tell a black person that they shouldn't speak about racism. And I guess I wouldn't tell a woman not to speak for other women about harassment. While it's true there's no way to qualify that her views speak to the views of all women, I just don't think it's helpful to be pointing out semantic technicalities when simple acknowledgement might be more appropriate.

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:57 pm

Interesting, thanks. Forgot to speak to Jo as my Mum was here as well last night so will do so today as she's coming to see me on her own.

I just got annoyed that woman twisted something into her own agenda, just because she felt like it. I'm getting more and more sick of people protesting about every last little thing, to the point where even if they have a genuine grievance I'll ignore it. I don't think I'd tell a rape victim not speak on behalf of other rape victims, nor blacks about racism; however, in the case of the former it's to go with genuine empathy, in the latter it's because I'll just get accused of white privilege. It's like I'm totally incapable of imagining how terrible something must be for someone unless I've experienced it myself, and that's what social media tells us is exactly the case right now. I think it's bullshit.

I wasn't trying to tell the woman that she can't have an opinion, but that opinion shouldn't be thrust upon half the population. I just went a bad way of going about it as I was trying to be reasonable and polite: Ironically I may have done a better job if I had been more abrupt.

Maybe I should just stop reading BuzzFeed, bit some of it is entertaining in a mindless-trash kind of way. However, right now it seems to be full of such anger against fuckboys and look how powerful these black people are (they're just standing there looking normal), or worst of the worst is this cultural appropriation garbage. I really, really hate that. The cowboys and Indians fancy dress bans is nonsense etc, there was a cracking vid aboyt uni student unions had banned people from cross dressing for fancy dress, or going as Pokehontas, and loads of other utter garbage. Let me go find it, if I can.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:27 pm

Bugger, can't find it, shame.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Joe » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:42 pm

No worries, I don't need to see the video to know that cultural appropriation as a concept has been twisted beyond recognition into a shaming tool. Also bear in mind the same Buzzfeed idiots who delight in calling out and vilifying supposed acts of cultural appropriation will in the same breath use contrary logic to defend the rights of gender-fluid individuals to borrow freely from opposite ends of the male/female cultural spectrum in order to better express how they identify themselves.

I hesitate to use the term "social justice warriors" because honestly there shouldn't be anything wrong with wanting social justice. But at the same time it's important to remember that people are idiots and will happily hold competing, malformed beliefs simply for the sake of being able to say they hold the moral high ground.

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Ekona » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:00 pm

I've spent the afternoon watching videos on YT of SJWs being totally pwned :lol: Sometimes it's a bit unjustified and you feel the other person is just doing it to be a bit of cunt, but 99% of the time I'm sat there just laughing my arse off at this high-ground holding hippy getting mullered.

There was one clip showing a talk show about health, and there was this obese self righteous lady talking to this other girl who lost a ton of weight and looked amazing. Fat girl turns around and says "Well, she may have lost all the weight, but is she truly happy now?" Host interrupts her and poses the question to the ex-fatty, who replies "Yup, I'm happier than I've ever been in my life! I feel so comfortable and good about myself, and I have much fewer health risks too" :lol: Fatty starts ranting about how the thin girl has now suddenly turned the debate into a health issue and fat people can be healthy too, but the host just pulls her up again and reminds Fatty that it was HER question, and the whole show WAS about health :lol:

Priceless. I detest the fact that SJWs should have to exist, but I hate the form SJWs take even more.



Don't even get me started on the LGBTQA-whatever debate. The news today carries an article where a convicted rapist had a sex change courtesy of the tax payer, and has now been moved to a women-only jail. Words cannot describe just how fucked up that actually is.
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